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Since we're in the summer doldrums and no one is posting anything of interest(!!), thought I'd bring up this subject.

I know a very few teams cut athletes from the track and cross country teams. WHAT IS YOUR OPINION?

I'd never cut anyone as you never know how they'll turn out months and years later.
Eventually, though, I've found out people do cut themselves if they're not keeping up.
I always figured if students come to practice every day and try, then they're on the team. However, if they skip practice or would rather screw around, then we let them go.

One high school team (who shall remain anonymous) had these standards (if I remember correctly) instilled due to huge numbers of athletes, at a 2-mile time trial on first day of school:
Girls: 20:00
Guys: 18:00

They also got a second chance one week, or maybe 10 days, later before being told to try again the next year.

Fair or not?

At some point it could become a liability or a safety issue for some schools that frequently run off campus. If you have kids who are struggling to hit 10 minutes/mile, they are going to get left or lost, requiring a coach to be monitoring their workout, leaving another group.

If you can't run 18:00 or 20:00, then its pretty obvious you haven't been doing your summer running. Completely fair

My philosophy is that nobody should get cut for ability, ever. But work is something different. In XC, especially early-season, safety is an issue for people who are not fit enough to complete practices. We don't have a time-trial standard, but we do counsel people who struggle early to try spring track and come back the next year prepared. With track, it's a bit trickier. Again, no cuts for ability, but event selection does the work. Kids who can't be successful in jumps and throws really can't gum up runways and circles as an excuse not to run. If you've got no talent (like me), you wind up in distance or the 400. If you're willing to do the work those groups do, you can stay. If not, you wind up cutting yourself. And if you DO work hard, chances are quite good that before graduation you'll get a chance to contribute in some way.

I agree in some points with Drew, and other points with Coach Salley. It can be questionable whether or not someone has been running if they need 20 minutes to run 2 miles. Unfortunately, that wouldn't help them come race day. However, there are people that put forth the work and can't physically run any faster. We had someone who couldn't run sub-30 to save her life but she was one of the hardest workers I had ever seen. I believe that hard work makes a great athlete, no matter what speed.

On the other hand, I could see cuts on a college team. This, however, most likely isn't a college team.

If no cut is the general rule then there needs to be sufficient coaching staff so that at least one coach is focused on developing runners and another coach with higher level of expertise focuses on varsity runners. A large no cut team without sufficient coaching can end up forcing advanced runners to have to forego a good run to babysit slower runners and can also mean the coach can't give quality time to advanced runners due to the need to focus on managing the large development squad. Development of new runners is important. But then if you dont have sufficient coaching staff dont harass the varsity for poor performance when you have been prioritizing the development squad.

THE MAY XC MEETING IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MEETING OF THE YEAR. THIS IS WHERE ATHLETES AND THEIR PARENTS NEED TO BE TOLD THAT IF YOU CANNOT COMPLETE 3 MILES BY AUG 1ST DO NOT COME OUT. IT IS A SAFETY ISSUE AMONG OTHER THINGS IN SC HEAT. I WOULD NEVER CUT A HARD WORKER BUT WOULD CUT SLACKERS AND FEEL GOOD ABOUT DOING IT. YOU ARE DOING THEM A BIG FAVOR IN THE GAME OF LIFE FOR THEIR FUTURE.

For our team we are having a "tryout" persay. The regulations are:

1) Any first time runner in grades 7-10 and any returning 8th graders, who adhere to the team's Absence Policy, will make the team automatically

2) Any athlete who runs 350 miles or more in the team's summer running program will automatically make the team and will exempt the tryout race.

3) Any returning member in grades 9-12, and any first time athlete in grades 11 and 12, who do not meet the criteria in the two regulations listed above, must run in a try-out race on Friday of the first week (of school I believe). To make the team, a runner must meet the following time standards in the 5k race:

9th grade - Under 23:30
10th grade - Under 22:00
11th grade - Under 21:30
12th grade - Under 21:00

That's how it should be ^

My wife won't let any of her middle or high school girls run off campus until they can do 2 miles on the track non-stop. So, that's a "test" of sorts.

When I was coaching high school, our warmup was a 2-mile loop and if it took someone more than 20 minutes to do it we left them on campus with a parent or asst. coach. They'd be given a workout, usually on the track, that included run/walk segments to increase endurance. It's a pretty big incentive to not be left behind.

From personal experience, my last year at Blue Ridge High we had 69 guys on June 1 and by the time we won state XC that fall we had 25 guys left. No one was cut, and mileage was appropriate for age and skill, but they dropped like flies.

What a great thread, we discuss this a lot and it still amazes me that there are track and cross country programs that cut kids. I am totally against cutting any kid. If we have kids that can't physically compete, we will try and find something they can do to help. As the Head Track and Cross Country Coach, I am always looking to the future. The odds are if you cut a kid, that kid want ever come back out, so he or she is gone from your program forever. We kiddingly say that we take all rejects, if you get cut from a sport, you are welcome to come out for track or cross country. In cross country, if I had a time standard to make the cross country team, the kids who got cut from volleyball wouldn't be willing to run it. They haven't had any summer training and who wants to get cut twice in one season? Two of our volleyball rejects have gone on to win multiple state championships for us and signed scholarships to compete at the next level. Our biggest issue with cross country is there aren't any middle school programs in our area. The middle school volleyball and basketball coaches recruit all the best athletes into their programs and they stay their until they graduate or get cut. Being involved in those two sports mean that they will begin playing year around. Volleyball players are pressured to play club volleyball in the spring and basketball players are pushed into AAU. So you end up missing them in the spring also. We actively recruit middle school kids for the cross country program but most aren't mentally ready to make this move.

In our track program, the coaching staff spends a tremendous amount time working on developing our athletes of the future. As much as I like to think that I can recognize talent, I am often wrong on what ninth grade kids will be able to accomplish as they progress through our program. In our sport, hard work will carry you a long way and most kids have to be taught what hard work truly is. Some never figure it out but a lot do. So if we cut kids, the ones that would be most likely to be cut would be the young and inexperienced kids who are the future of the program.
CHudg

@Chudg For a no cut team, where there is and interest in and focus on development...what is the appropriate coaching staff (number of coaches and level of expertise) if the desire is to foster development as well as provide strong mentoring for top runners?

@leapsoverhedges I don't know the magic number of coaches needed but our program usually carries between 35-45 girls each year. We do not cut and our policy is there is a place in our program for runners of all level. Would it be easier to coach 10-15 top girls and not have to train 35-45 girls? Of course it would, but is that what is good for a kid wanting to participate in a hs sport? We stress doing your best everyday, working hard so that the top runners know that you are working to get better. Our older girls do a good job leading and they also do a good job making sure everyone is working to get better.

I guess it boils down to how hard you want to work and how you want your program viewed. We have been somewhat successful because we believe there is a place for everyone and we try and make the program feel like family. Kids only have a few years to enjoy hs sports before they go off to college and then the real world, why not let them enjoy their hs years and be involved in a sport that builds discipline and character?? Not every kid can run varsity but every kid can work hard, great life lesson. As a coach there is alot of satisfaction from watching a young kid complete that 1st race, seeing a kid break 30:00 for the 1st time and flashing a smile as if she just won a state title. Those are moments you may never see if you cut a kid for not "being good enough" when they 1st come out.

Again, lot better coaches in this state than me and that is just one philosophy. It has worked ok for us and I do cherish the moments when a runner performs better than they ever thought they could.

Stay out of the heat and hope everyone is having a great summer!!!

As a follow-up, which schools have the largest teams this fall?

In the Upstate, these teams are usually quite large (in no particular order):
Dorman
Riverside
Mauldin
Wade Hampton
J.L. Mann (girls)
TL Hanna
Pendleton
Daniel

What teams combined have more than 50 runners? 75? Anyone with 100?

@OnceARunnr I looked up the info on HS websites (HS pages, not SC runners since SC runners pages doesn't divide out track) and found this for boys:

4a
Lexington 38
Mauldin 32
Wade hampton no info
Wando no info
Dutch Fork no info
Clover no info
Dorman 59
Riverside 44
JL Mann 31


3a
HH 21
Daniel 50
Eastside 38 (nice t-shirt in the photo!)
Wren no info
James Island no info

@OnceARunnr
With boys and girls, we (Greenville High) have hit that 50 number this year. it's a jump of 10-15 from last year and 20-25 from 2010. It's a process though and you all know that numbers don't mean anything if a) there's no talent or b) you can't develop the talent there.

Track/Cross Country are two sports where we luckily get to do the "cutting" at the end of the season. Most everyone that comes out get the chance to be apart of the team and try to learn something and then at the end of the season we trim down to the best 7 or 8 in CC and the best 4 in each event in Track. The amount of work that is involved to be one of the best in both sports tends to cut most kids that aren't sure.

We are moving up to 4A this year and have 25 girls out for CC this year and I thought to myself one morning...any athlete that is willing to get up and be at school ready to run at 6am has earned the right to be a member of the team. They may not be the best athlete, but they are atleast willing to sacrifice for the team. That is a major commitment!!!

hallmanac13

Track/Cross Country are two sports where we luckily get to do the "cutting" at the end of the season. Most everyone that comes out get the chance to be apart of the team and try to learn something and then at the end of the season we trim down to the best 7 or 8 in CC and the best 4 in each event in Track. The amount of work that is involved to be one of the best in both sports tends to cut most kids that aren't sure.

We are moving up to 4A this year and have 25 girls out for CC this year and I thought to myself one morning...any athlete that is willing to get up and be at school ready to run at 6am has earned the right to be a member of the team. They may not be the best athlete, but they are atleast willing to sacrifice for the team. That is a major commitment!!!

@hallmanac13

Amen. I figure most teams end up with kids cutting themselves from the team.
It always made me sad when kids quit. I felt like they were depriving themselves and had no idea what they were going to miss.

sp63545

@OnceARunnr
With boys and girls, we (Greenville High) have hit that 50 number this year. it's a jump of 10-15 from last year and 20-25 from 2010. It's a process though and you all know that numbers don't mean anything if a) there's no talent or b) you can't develop the talent there.

@sp63545

Awesome! Hope they stay runners for life. Stephen, I keep hearing good things about Greenville High.

@OnceARunnr
I would like to partially retract a statement. Numbers do mean something regardless of results, "success", or how talented a team is. I say that because the more kids we have come out, the more we can teach discipline, respect, hard work, sportsmanship, commitment, etc... Most importantly though, we can impact and invest in more kids lives.

On another note, I think we have some good things going on at GHS! Kids are working hard and hungry to earn a little respect. By no means am I predicting beating any specific teams or anything like that, but we are moving in the right direction!

Bottom line is that "no cut" teams need to ensure they have enough quality coaching available to avoid having the advanced/talented kids get all the attention/quality coaching while just dragging the low skill/low potential kids along or having the advanced/talented kids growth stagnated due to them being held back by a large gaggle of low skill/low potential athletes. I know this is a kinder and gentler day and time, but there was once upon a time when almost every team and sport had tryouts. Sometimes track teams become more a place to hang out than a place to train and develop athletes when kids don't have to really work to make or stay on the team. Usually there aren't an infinite number of coaches available to coach, so there shouldn't be an infinite number of slots available on the team. My main point is that why should track be seen any differently than other sports that have tryouts, cuts and max team size such as basketball, football, baseball, etc. Maybe if the all around standard was raised in track and field our sport would be respected more by people outside of the sport. Of course, we don't know how great the 8th grade kid who is running track for the 1st time will be, but we can make pretty good assessments of the work ethic and potential of kids who have been in our programs for a year or two.

@kvsmith95

I agree, there needs to be enough quality coaching to ensure everyone on the team receives the attention they need to improve.
But the solution should never be to cut kids from the program. As OnceARunnr said, running is a self-selective sport. If a kid doesn't have the right work ethic or motivation, they'll eventually quit. Those that don't--those that show up day after day to run hills or speed work or long runs--have earned their place on the team, no matter how slow they run. After all, the time it takes to run 3.1 miles is often a poor measurement of a runner's heart or character. Even if a kid never wins a state championship, even if they never score a point for the team, they contribute something invaluable just by being out there every day.

To address your other point, I think we gain attention and popularity for running by cultivating people--within the team and within the community--who are genuinely passionate about the sport. And I think cutting kids who show an interest in running is a bad way to go about that.

@bearbait01 - I see your point and generally agree that discouraging kids from trying or learning to love running isn't a good thing, but is the track team the place for that kind of motivation? Maybe, there should be a running club or something else that promotes running and physical health that may even lead kids to the track team. But, track is a sport! There are many people who love football, basketball, baseball, soccer, etc. that don't make the team. Does that actually stop those kids from loving the sport or trying to make the team in future years. You can still cut and encourage, just gotta be realistic about the purpose of the "sport" and "team". We need to establish the same seriousness for track as other organized sports do for themselves. If a kid wants to make the team they will put for the effort to do so. You may not need to cut a bunch of kids or even the kids who run the slowest, but competition usually brings out the best. If kids know you are serious about your standards that may just cut down on wasting some of the short 12 wk season trying to motivate kids to push themselves. This is not absolute, just my opinion. Thanks!

Carrying capacity should be considered. The variables are different depending on the school site and location. Cross country is different than other sports that are all played on a single field...i.e., runners have to go a significant distance from the school grounds to get in a good run, and where they run has to be relatively safe in terms of terrain (to avoid injury) and traffic. If a coach has the goal of building a large team, because he or she enjoys fostering interest in running and building character, that is fine...but in that case, it is not appropriate to harass the better runners for poor performance if your attention to the logistics of managing a massive team weakens your ability to properly focus on and mentor and train the top runners (i.e., paying attention to individual pacing, factors affecting individual performance, and responding to feedback from runners). Furthermore, if the top runners need to sacrifice better training locations because logistics of a large team with lots of younger runners (transportation/carpooling, safety) prevent utilizing some better running locations, how does that help the goal of success for the varsity runners (the athletes that we want the younger runners to aspire to be)?

@leapsoverhedges I AGREE.WHY DOES CROSS COUNTRY HAVE TO BE FOR EVERYBODY. AP CALCULUS ISNT FOR EVERYONE. I WOULD BE WILLING TO BET THAT HALF OF THOSE RUNNERS ON LARGE TEAMS ABSOLUTELY HATE TO RUN YET THEY STAY OUT CAUSE THE COACH MAKES IT EASY FOR THEM. EVERYONE DOESNT HAVE TO BE FAST BUT EVERYONE CAN WORK HARD AND I DONT SEE THAT HAPPENING ON SOME OF THESE LARGE SQUADS

Last year while in the midst of my summer training, I got a 27:14 on race at the beach, and my first timed 5K was somewhere around a 30 something. Now im running low 18's with a PR of 18:09 as of 10/17/12. So turning anyone away from running is a stupid idea, am im proof of it. You should never discourage or turn any person away from running, ever, period. When someone learns how to run, they improve, it took me five years to push myself, ive always been running, ive just never been good until recently. This is why running is so great you can never tell when a kid will just bust out.